CLEVELAND, Ohio — It’s time for the first Terry’s Talkin’ podcast of 2025, featuring cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. We start with the league-leading Cavs, who are preparing for a marquee ESPN matchup with the best team in the West, the Oklahoma City Thunder, on Wednesday night at Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse.
Terry was in Berea for Monday’s Andrew Berry press conference after the Browns finished 3-14, and he has thoughts on what he heard and what’s next as they try to rebuild.
We also consider a listener email about an idea to help MLB pitchers by going back to an old-school rule.
Have thoughts or questions for the podcast? Send them in via email to us at [email protected] and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line, and we’ll feature the best ones on an upcoming podcast.
Highlights:
- The Cavs are gaining national recognition similar to the Warriors;
- What makes OKC different;
- What Terry is seeing from the Cavs and Darius Garland;
- What we’re looking forward to when the Cavs face the Thunder on Wednesday night;
- Who is the Thunder’s coach and where did he come from?
- Why Deshaun Watson’s injury allows the Browns to start fresh.
- What Terry thought of the Browns’ answers to their current predicament;
- What the Browns need to do this offseason;
- Why Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski deserve another shot at this;
- A radical old-schools idea from a listener to help pitchers get more action on their pitches without overtaxing their arms;
- OSU’s chase for the national championship;
- Terry’s book recommendation for this week;
- and a listener email about stars vs. superstars.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here.
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to [email protected], and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below. The transcript below was generated by a computer, and so it contains many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell (03:25.858)
Hey, welcome to this first edition for 2025 of the Terry’s Talking Podcast. I’m David Campbell, your host. Terry Pluto, award-winning columnist from the plane dealer and cleveland.com is joining me as he does every week. How you doing Terry? Pretty hectic weekend for you. I know you had a trip to Baltimore in there and a trip back and then Andrew Berry and the whole bit out in Berea yesterday. How’s things?
Terry (03:31.633)
you
Terry (03:43.333)
Yeah.
Terry (03:47.825)
I’m doing better than probably the Browns are. mean, I may have struggled, but I’m not three and 14 and all this kind of stuff. So I am doing well and I am grateful to be doing podcasts and still writing for cleveland.com after all these years.
David Campbell (03:51.214)
Terry (04:09.305)
So I know you wanna do Browns, but I wanna start with something a little different. Because tomorrow night, everybody knew that at this point, the 30 and four calves, are they 30 and four? 31 and four, going to 30 and five Oklahoma City Thunder, right?
David Campbell (04:09.492)
And on to 2025. OK.
David Campbell (04:22.062)
31 and 4.
David Campbell (04:28.834)
Yep, top team in the East versus the top team in the West.
Terry (04:29.947)
How about that? How about that? Those teams, those markets. the NBA and ESPN loves having those two teams as their favorite markets in the league. They’re probably going, the only thing would be worse would be Salt Lake City. You know how they are with their market stuff. All right, I had to wick this up, but I am embarrassed to admit, who is the coach of those Oklahoma City Thunder?
David Campbell (04:56.718)
So I didn’t know a lot about him either, but it’s Mark Daniel, right? So let’s start with the Cavs, Terry. Let’s just do it. Let’s give people a preview. So big game tomorrow night. It’s seven at the Fieldhouse. It’s going to be on ESPN. They have taken that game and put it on ESPN. Best team in the East, best team in the West. So the Cavs have what, a 10-game winning streak? And the Thunder have a 15-game winning streak. So this is…
Terry (04:59.759)
Yeah.
Terry (05:04.165)
Yeah, right. Yes.
Terry (05:16.465)
Mm-hmm. 15. How about that too? This is unbelievable.
David Campbell (05:21.548)
Yeah, it doesn’t get much better than this. I know the Cavs have been getting some talk and Ethan Sansa who covers the Cavs with Chris Feodor. Ethan covered the Cavs game Sunday and the Hornets were talking about the Cavs in the same breath as like being as intimidating as the Golden State Warriors of 10 years ago. So we’re starting to see some of this national recognition kick in but
Terry (05:41.965)
Yeah.
David Campbell (05:47.694)
Let’s do a quick preview the game. What do you see in here Taryn? Tell us about Mark Daniel a little bit for fans. don’t know a lot about
Terry (05:51.953)
Well, first of all, yeah, when we start with the game, basically, have the NBA’s best offensive team against the NBA’s best defensive team. When I look at the points efficiency, and so that’s fun to look at. And Oklahoma City also scores 115 a game. mean, they can score too, but you know, the calf shooting, been all year, been teetering around 50 % from the field and 40 % at the, at the three point line. Um, that is just remarkable. I’m looking at Oklahoma City’s
47 % from the field, 35%. I read it, it was a longer story in Oklahoma City about a week ago in the Wall Street Journal, and they were talking about how OKC is like the master of the steel. They create a lot of deflections in steels, and their defense is really built around that. It’s a little different than what you said. Yeah, go for it. Yeah.
David Campbell (06:43.66)
I have a couple of numbers, Terry, that might be interesting. So the Thunder is averaging almost as many steals per game as they are turnovers per game, which you don’t see hardly ever. And most people are doing assist to turnover ratio, but the Thunder are at 11.8 steals per game, and they’re averaging 11.9 turnovers per game, and they have 25.8 assists per game. So just to give you a comparison of the Cavs, the Cavs average 8.8 steals per game to the Thunder’s 11.8.
Terry (06:50.851)
Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Terry (06:57.489)
Mm-mm.
Terry (07:12.101)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (07:12.162)
The Cavs averaged 13 turnovers a game to the Thunder’s 11.9, and the Cavs averaged 29.1 assists to 25.8 for the Thunder. But it is, right, it’s kind of an interesting mix of things they’re doing defensively to produce all those steals.
Terry (07:28.817)
And then I’ll call sometimes you have deflections that it messes it up maybe that the for example Garland tries to throw the ball into Jared Allen it’s deflected Maybe rolls out to the corner and you know, O’Coro picks it up, but that messed up the whole play So they get a ton of those deflections to say they play a very quick defense So be fun to see how the cats handle that because I’m sure they’re gonna go after Garland, especially in the back court and
just to see if they could cause the team to play basically to play in a hurry. That’s what they want to do. You know, have a Shea Gildens-Alexander who’s just a tremendous, tremendous player. Guys averaging, but he’s playing 34 minutes a game, 31 points. And I’m looking, shooting 52 from the field, 36 on threes. Jaylen Williams, just a really nice team.
And the thing that I like about both of these teams, consider Oklahoma City. You know, they had Hardin roll through there and they Kevin Durant and they have had some other stars. They’ve had to rebuild. They did it all through the, basically the draft and smart trades. You know, the Cavs after LeBron left, Kevin Love, you know, they had him, he’s gone, basically all those things. And what do they do? They did it through smart trades and good drafting. And here you are.
David Campbell (08:56.798)
And another guy that man, this guy’s having a really good career and the Cavs know him, Isaiah Hartnestein, 12 points, 12.2 rebounds per game. I think he’s third on the team in scoring, but this is a guy that maybe a lot of people didn’t see this from and he’s really having a really great NBA career. He’s bouncing around a little bit, but I think he’s having a huge impact on the city.
Terry (09:00.537)
Yeah, yeah, it’s amazing.
Terry (09:16.529)
Oh, yeah, he was at the net. He really hurt the calves in the playoffs at the Knicks a couple years ago. And I believe he was briefly with the calves a few years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was a guy, Chet Holmgren. They drafted high. He had gotten hurt. You look at him, you know, 16 points, eight, eight and a half rebounds. There’s a lot of are I going to go a little wonky analytics. And this goes all the way back before they were even, you know, talked about. But.
David Campbell (09:20.174)
yeah.
David Campbell (09:23.82)
He was, yeah, the year before, yeah.
Terry (09:44.113)
One of the things that I remember when I was covering the CAS and Gary Fitzsimmons was the, um, assistant GM to Wayne Embry. And he had this theory and it showed that generally a lot of times you say, boy, if a guy plays 20 minutes a game and averages, uh, seven points, if he played, you know, 40 minutes a game, he’d average 14 or whatever. That wasn’t necessarily true. He had all this data he went through, but if a guy played say 15 minutes a game.
and got six rebounds. he played 30 minutes, he probably got about 12. He said it seemed like rebounding was a thing to stay constant. In other words, there was a ratio between the number of rebounds and minutes. And as the number of minutes went up, so did the rebounding almost to the same ratio where our scoring did not. And he just, yeah. Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (10:31.8)
Well, could totally see that because rebounding is about jumping and being in the right place and determination and positioning. Shooting, like the more minutes you play, your legs start to go, right? Your form might suffer. could, that’s really interesting, Terry.
Terry (10:44.492)
Yeah And they could go at you a little more on that on there in a problem the NBA that you could help block them out block them out block them out They don’t most of the guys don’t block anybody out. So that is a that’s always a fun stat So the heart and steam thing in that regard is probably not a big surprise because it goes back to 30 some years ago I remember being told that Jerome Wayne was the guy that actually sparked that research because the cats that
David Campbell (10:48.131)
Sure.
Terry (11:12.337)
looking to trade from did briefly. mean the problem with Jerome is he just couldn’t score at all and Chris Dudley was another but they could rebound and if you gave them 25 or 30 minutes a great game you got double figure rebounds or more.
Terry (11:46.875)
Are you that? Yeah. Okay.
David Campbell (11:46.884)
I lost it, Terry. I am, yeah.
You still sound good. Let me see here.
Terry (11:52.602)
Okay, I wonder if it’s on your end this time.
David Campbell (11:56.76)
I don’t know, keep going.
Terry (11:57.989)
Alright, so anyway, what do you think about the game?
David Campbell (12:00.982)
I’m well, I tell you the thing I really want to see is we’ve talked a lot about Darius Garland and he is really feeling it this season and Sunday he’s basically having like a one on one playground duel with Lamello Ball where they’re just going back and forth at each other, which we wouldn’t have seen last year because I don’t think he went through so much personally.
Terry (12:09.149)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (12:20.775)
Yeah.
Terry (12:28.327)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (12:28.524)
His game was suffering and to see him not only playing well, but just the attitude and the confidence and a little bit of trash talking going on. I’m really interested to see how OKC goes at him tomorrow night and who’s on him and how he responds under like some big, some pretty big spotlights. mean, this is probably the Celtics game and this had probably been the first Celtics game and this had probably been the two biggest games of the year in terms of notoriety and anticipation. So.
Terry (12:57.853)
Sure, and believe me, I would have been open to trading him. I was really down on him. I know he was hurting everything, but I had major doubts on the whole combination with him and Donovan Mitchell. So I am glad to say at least so far, I’m very wrong about that. And it’s thrilling to see him.
David Campbell (12:58.316)
I’m really interested to see that.
Terry (13:19.195)
You know, he’s stronger physically when he goes into the lane. He’s always had the ability to change speeds and quickly change directions and yet seem to be under control, but he’s more decisive. Now. The one difference is remember I would just do those circle dribblers dribbles and where you going and you’ve just dribbled off nine seconds on the clock and now you’re throwing it out to somebody in the corner who’s covered. That stuff’s gone away and probably part of it is him feeling more confident. And I think just the way Kenny Atkinson set up his offense with,
a lot of good spacing for these guys. really know where to go. Kenny was explaining this to me. had a long talk a few weeks ago and it gets pretty wonky. the point being, isn’t just the, say drive, kick and swing. Where’d you drive to the basket, you kick it or pass it out to one guy and he swings it to the next guy. But at each of those things, there’s movement. Guys are looking for open spaces on the floor. They’re almost kind of twirling around like a clock around the…
the perimeter of the rim. So it’s fun to watch and that is a tremendous game. But this coach for, okay, see Mark Dungal, he was born in England. He went to the University of Connecticut where he was the student manager for the Yukon Huskies when Jim Calhoun was the coach. This is in 2003 and through 07. And then he went
Calhoun liked him sent him up as a graduate assistant at Holy Cross a guy named George Blaine. He was a coach there and then he was a Assistant there and then his next stop he got a job as a low assistant coach at Florida And this is where things really broke for him. He met Billy Donovan who was the head coach and he was there with Donovan and then when Donovan went to take the
job at Oklahoma City in 2014. He brought him along and then what they did is they put Mark, the coach, at the G-League level and he was their G-League coach for five years. And then in 2020, he was promoted to the staff of OKC. And then in 21, he got the job. I mean, it’s almost like a farm system for the coach.
David Campbell (15:46.604)
Yeah, homegrown, just like the team.
Terry (15:46.803)
And yeah, and they stuck with him. So his first year is 20, 21. He was 22 games next year, 24 games. So after his first two years, he’s 46 and one Oh eight. And you could, you know, that might’ve get some people fired, but one Oklahoma city. were just saying, Presti were this carefully building this team. And then in, um, in 22, 23, they were 40 and 42. And then the last year.
57 and 25. So that’s the coach.
David Campbell (16:21.206)
And this was stockpiling not only a coach like bringing him up, but also stockpiling all those draft picks. mean, it was almost laughable how many they, don’t have it in front of me, but I mean, during the draft, they would just trade guys for number one picks or number two picks in the future and then turn the twos into ones. think what they have three or four first rounders a couple of years in a row. was just.
Terry (16:24.508)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Terry (16:39.483)
It just seems, yeah, exactly. just, and, and they, and one of the theories too was even if the guy maybe doesn’t play quote unquote, like a first rounder, if he’s even say he’s like a coral or somebody like that, if he’s a usable player, you know, for the first few years, he’s on that rookie contract. could trade him to somebody who, will take him as a role player. It really was masterful because you’re not going to attract a whole lot of.
If you think it’s tough to bring some of these name free agents to Cleveland, just try Oklahoma City. That’s just not going to work. But they don’t care. They really did it their way.
David Campbell (17:21.23)
Yeah, it’s been impressive and they’re seeing everything. The timelines just all matched up. Their coach has now got not only a G League experience, but some NBA experience and the team matured kind of at the same time.
Terry (17:29.553)
Yeah.
I mean, the guy was a manager from England on the Yukon team. And now we, then last year he was the NBA coach of the year. I mean, that really is, he had a friend from England. He went to a basketball camp who knew somebody in Connecticut and that’s why he went there. It’s one of those stories. But then if you look at the Cavs, know, LeBron leaves and then they draft Garland and then the big trade.
David Campbell (17:41.186)
Yeah, that’s some descent.
Terry (18:01.753)
And Kobe Alton will admit this was a franchise trading, changing trade with trading for Jared Allen. Cause Allen suddenly puts them in position to have a big guy. That was, they threw a number one pick into a deal when New Jersey, excuse me, Brooklyn was trying to get James Harden and they needed all these number one picks. And they had the cats, a number one pick leftover from Milwaukee. And I think it was for
a trade for Hill or somebody like that. And that started the whole thing going.
David Campbell (18:38.86)
All right. Anything else on the calves, Yeah.
Terry (18:42.003)
Yeah, one last thing. So then you go, all right, let’s Let’s break it down. So you go from Garland first front pick, which was a controversial pick, a small guard. He had played only four games at Vanderbilt and the cast took him. Then they trade for Allen. You know, then they draft Mobley. You know, they had drafted a Coral, they draft Mobley and then they make the big trade for Mitchell. Would Mitchell stay or would he leave? They were able to convince him to stay. So you have a team that is
homegrown much like Oklahoma City and some of the picks that they had picked up along the way, know, were used for example in the trade with Jared Allen and I have to go back to look and see well a bunch of the number one picks to to to Utah for Donovan Mitchell and in that words and these teams were built they really did look for character guys and they have coaches who are
I mean, yes, Kenny Anakinson’s kicked around basketball lot, but really he played a lot early in his career after, I believe it was Richmond is where he played in college. And then he played a long time in Europe and he still has extensive European coaching experiences with the French national team. it’s fun. Watch this game, baby. Let’s see how this one goes.
David Campbell (20:04.462)
Yeah, and one of the great things, Terry, is that games tomorrow night at seven down at the Fieldhouse on Wednesday night. The Cavs then play Toronto on Thursday. Then they have a back to back with Indiana here in Cleveland on Sunday and then add Indiana on Tuesday. And then the Cavs and Thunder will have a rematch in OKC next Thursday, January 16th at 730.
Terry (20:22.611)
And how about this, David? And tomorrow night at seven o’clock, I will not be at the game because I am at the music box speaking there. Exactly going on at seven and the doors open at five. There’s no cover charge. Maybe you can, we’ll follow it on your, you don’t do what I’ll do. I’m taping it at home. I’ll catch it when I get home. could check it out. You could yell out the scores at me during the talk or whatever. But, so that’s going to be fun too.
David Campbell (20:32.62)
That’s right.
Terry (20:55.283)
Yeah, I have to admit I looked at that and I go, well, that’s a nice game, know, but they asked me for that date and said, well, yeah, that’s okay. If not, what did I know?
David Campbell (21:03.406)
And by the way, if you want to check out Terry at the Music Box, which is down in the flats, you can go to musicboxklee.com and get the information on that for tomorrow night, January 8th. So, all right, Terry, I know you were out in Berea, as I mentioned, and you Andrew Barry some questions, some tough questions, and let’s take a break right here. And when we get back, we’ll get in to everything Browns, your take on what you heard and where things will go from here. So.
Terry (21:19.741)
Yes.
David Campbell (21:33.122)
We’ll get into all that and more of your emails when we return on Terry’s Talk.
Terry (21:39.249)
All right. I am fine to keep going. Yeah, I just thought let’s just go with those guys, give them a nice run first, so.
David Campbell (21:43.406)
All right, let’s do it.
David Campbell (21:48.652)
Yeah, they deserve it. So, all right, here we go. Five, four, three, two, one.
David Campbell (22:00.94)
Hey, we’re back on Terry’s Talking. Before I forget, do not forget to check out Terry’s newsletter. Comes out every Wednesday at noon. It’s just chock full of great stuff, stories, analysis, contract breakdowns. Terry has a lot of fun with it and the people who subscribe really enjoy. Go to cleveland.com slash Pluto. There’s a blue bar at the top of that page. If you click on that, it will tell you how to subscribe and you get two free weeks to check it out. subscribe to Terry’s newsletter.
All right, Terry, let’s talk some Browns here. You were out in Berea yesterday and this is the, for, people who don’t kind of know how it works, you hear from the GM usually before the season and after the season and usually at the bye week too. But this was the first time we’ve really heard from Andrew Berry on Monday since the bye week. And you were there and you had some tough questions you wanted to ask. Why don’t you tell everybody what it was like being there, what you really wanted to ask and
I guess also did you get the answers you were expecting or did anything surprise you?
Terry (23:01.491)
Well, obviously the big surprise was they came out and said, the Sean has had a quote unquote setback with his Achilles. They wouldn’t elaborate. as somebody who had major Achilles surgery, which is me, I majored Achilles surgery on one foot and then on the other foot, I had a partial tear, which they were able to fix by just being in a boot. Annie, you’re very prone after surgery to having a setback if you don’t do things right, or if just something happens.
because the Achilles is almost like a rubber band. It can stretch, it can break. There also are other tendons in that area. I tore all three. One was called the soleus and gastro. I’m mispronouncing this, but more anatomy going on here than people want. But the reason I’m mentioning that is you are very vulnerable if something goes wrong. Now he was already in trouble coming back from Achilles surgery for next year in terms of how he’ll play when he’ll be back.
The good thing in my mind, I’m very serious about this is for the Browns is fine. Just you could probably put them on the injured list or whatever it is. And if he needs to go get surgery again or whatnot, I don’t know what it is, but something.
This allows them to start fresh, David.
David Campbell (24:21.336)
Well, and you’ve been writing this, Terry, and think we kind of have been talking about like it’s time to get back to basics, but it is, it’s like a huge weight has been lifted in some ways. And you never want to see anybody get hurt, and especially the serious injury that Deshaun Watson had. But the requirement to think every single day at work about Deshaun Watson and how you’re going to maximize his potential, that ship has sailed and you don’t have to plan on him even being there.
Terry (24:23.089)
Yeah.
Terry (24:30.747)
Yes.
David Campbell (24:49.518)
If he’s there, that’s great. It’s a bonus and you can see what he looks like and if he can compete but you kind of felt that yesterday in terms of I’m guessing in terms of like We have to move on from this and assume we’re not gonna have him and that’s a little bit freeing I’m guessing in some ways
Terry (25:03.155)
Yeah, I mean, they were already going, we got to get quarter, new quarterbacks and there was already going to do that. But this, think does free them up and there’s a way it gets into some, some stuff I don’t fully understand having to do with insurance and there could be some salary cap relief from that. mean, right now I still counts the 73 million on the cap for the next two years, but there we have to check it out, David, but there is some stuff that could come from.
from this if he’s out for the whole year or out for a considerable length of time. That would help their cap situation. And the problem is that everything was always, we have to get these receivers for Deshawn. No, we got to rip up the offense and fire coaches from an offense that ranked 10th in scoring because we want to take, go from good to great. That was exact kind of quote that Andrew Barry gave me the pre-season last year. So that’s why they did it. We know the offense was good, but to take that next step.
We thought we had to do this and bring in Ken Dorsey and all and then all the horrible things that happened after that. And they ended up with the lowest scoring team in the NFL, but they threw the most passes.
David Campbell (26:15.63)
Not to stretch this analogy, Terry, but does this remind you a little bit of the Cavs when LeBron was here? And it’s like, we’ve got to do this for LeBron. We’ve got to do that for LeBron. And then when LeBron left, the Cavs were able to just do what they needed to do to just like we talked about in the last segment in terms of getting guys that they thought would fit guiding, getting guys for long-term, creating a long runway. Like the runway has changed for the Browns now and Deshaun Watson may or may not be on it, but this is, this is a new plan. And Kevin Stefanski talks all the time about
Terry (26:22.341)
Yeah.
David Campbell (26:45.42)
We’re solution guys and problem solvers. And this lets them solve the problem of improving the offense immediately.
Terry (26:53.669)
Yeah, and of course the difference is LeBron. LeBron was a player for the ages and that. You know, one thing I think Deshawn never understood here is he had zero goodwill in the bank. If anything, it was a negative balance. And I think he was surprised that people like weren’t thrilled he was here. All the criticism and controversy that surrounded him. You know, he’s still in his mind was the guy that led Clemson to the national title. He was the guy that,
got Houston to the playoffs, a guy that was a three-time pro bowler, and why don’t people want me and like me? And the things that followed with him sitting out a year in a contract dispute and then all the civil suits and the suspension, just, to me, seems like he just didn’t get it. That you have no, like LeBron has so much goodwill in the bank here just by coming back.
Him coming here, I think also the great thing is LeBron just came to sign the contract. that? You didn’t have to trade the franchise for him. I mean, they gave up everything but the terminal tower to bring him back. And then you look at this and so that was just, everything was odd. And as you’re correct, I just sense from Stefanski to Barry, I wrote a column, it’s almost as if they are now taking over the three and 14 Browns.
with the number two pick and this roster. It’s almost like they weren’t around last season because they now get to start fresh. They could fill the quarterback room with three new guys if they want. They can go back and just run whatever blocking schemes that they think are best. Stefanski could get back to being to Stefanski who helped Baker have his best year.
until he went to Tampa, you know, before that, who helped Jacoby have his best year, who revived Flacco’s career. And you could even roll back to when he was in Minnesota, Case Keenum had his best season in the NFL and Cousins was very, very good. I mean, really the only quarterback that kind of failed for Stefanski was Watson.
David Campbell (29:12.482)
Yeah. So before we move on from the Watson thing, Terry, you wrote a couple of weeks ago that you thought it was important for the Browns to come clean, for lack of a better phrase, on the Watson trade and say, listen, this isn’t working. We know that. And you yesterday asked Andrew Barry to evaluate the Watson trade. I was going to read the quote that, yeah. All right.
Terry (29:20.327)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (29:34.056)
Yeah, go ahead.
David Campbell (29:35.394)
We’ve never been afraid to take big swings on things we think can help the team and help the organization. Sometimes you’ll hit and sometimes they won’t go quite according to plan. With any business where you take on risk or where you make decisions, you understand that there’s both upside and downside. There’s no such thing as a riskless transaction. The one thing that we always want to do is really protect our downside as much as you can. And we will be positioned moving forward from both a cap perspective and having the second pick in the draft, whether we select the player.
or use it to maximize in another way, it gives us an opportunity to really pivot if we need to. So what did you think of that answer that you got?
Terry (30:13.277)
I still want to say we screwed it up. I would have liked to have heard that.
You know, it was a typical analytical Browns, like, okay, it was bad, but we came out of this with at least we got the second pick in the draft. And I think when he talked about the cap thing, that might be what I was looting to trying to figure out this whole possible insurance thing, which leads to some cap relief. They’re also rolling over. think they were, they had $40 million.
that they were under the cap this year. They’re rolling that over into next year. I pressed it, because I had a follow-up too, but you gave up all these assets or whatever and he just kind of stuck with the, you take a big swing and sometimes you miss. Well, it was a huge swing and it was a big miss, but.
David Campbell (31:06.072)
Well, yeah, and he talked about protecting the downside as much as you can. Like the downside was huge there. mean, they’ve got a, they’ve missed three first round draft picks and the other draft picks that are not on the roster right now. And who knows how many starters they have missed out on because of the Watson trade. That’s been the downside and it’s a huge one. They did not really protect against that.
Terry (31:25.745)
There’s a true, I mean, there are the downsides. The good thing is the downsides are over, but the other than some calf stuff, but the downsides were that downside was a feeling of people on the roster that Watson was being implicated to. I had written this before that players are looking at the same game the fans are. And then wondering why is this game guy starting week after week by week three of the year this year, he was terrible and they knew it.
And they probably even knew it more than we did because they’re looking at the tape over and over. And for most guys in their position playing like that, they know they wouldn’t be starting. Now, it was hurting credibility. And there’s Stefanski up there, probably biting through his tongue, trying to say, well, he gives us the best chance to win. You know, like he was just programmed to say it because he had to play them. They had to play them and they had to change the blocking scheme. I don’t know why, but they did.
Because supposedly, don’t know, David, you take that one. Why do they have, why in their mind do they have to change the blocking scheme? You’re more, you’re better at this.
David Campbell (32:32.472)
Well, I’m not an expert on offensive line blocking, but what do they want to run with Deshaun Watson, right? More RPOs to let him decide whether to run or pass on a given play. And RPOs, the Brown zone blocking scheme was based on double teams pulling power and Nick Chubb running behind that and then doing play action off of that. And when you’re running RPOs and you’re trying to let Deshaun Watson read things at the line of scrimmage,
And there’s more to it than that to the Browns when they were Lance Ryslin, who does a lot of film breakdowns for us, broke down a play with Dan Lobby a couple of weeks ago on video. And the Browns chose a way on this particular play they were looking at that their angles. They could have done it a different way that would have been easier. And that was just an example to me of like, all right, maybe they didn’t have, maybe they were missing Bill Callahan and not just from technique, but also like on how to block given running plays. And it all added up and.
Mary Kay had it in her story the other day when, when Andy Dickerson got left go, let go. he pretty much was kind of on the side a lot of times and letting other guys run the offensive line practice, which is just, I don’t know how that happens, but they’ve got to get back to basics. This is going to be the off season of getting back to basics of why they hired Kevin Stefanski in the first place. And it goes back to these zone running schemes where you’re double teaming and pulling and being physical upfront and.
Terry (33:34.3)
Yeah.
David Campbell (33:53.89)
We’ve talked about Stefanski before. Lead the league in rushing and lead the league in rushing attempts. That is the beginning of the formula, right?
Terry (33:58.599)
Yeah. Right. Because the first four years he ranked in the rushing attempts, fourth, fourth, fifth and ninth. Even last year where they were number five in passing attempts, they were number four in rushing attempts. They just ran a lot of plays because they were up, you know, going up and down the field. And by the way, how about this one, David? They averaged more yards per carry this year, 4.1 than they did last year, 3.8.
By the way, they were 28th in rushing attempts this year, but they were first in passing attempts.
David Campbell (34:34.222)
And just to recap, Andy Dickerson let go immediately after the season along with Ken Dorsey. I don’t think we have mentioned that, they, but that was one of my predictions for 2025. It wasn’t that bold of a prediction, but it happened pretty fast right after the game.
Terry (34:44.977)
Yeah. No. And it sounds cruel, but actually I like that when teams do that or anywhere because the faster those guys can get back on the market and land somewhere, whether it’s college or something, the better. The longer you drag it out, you can see there’s all kinds of player movement and things or coaching movement going on. The, the harder it is to find a job. Cause some of these guys do bounce between college and pro also. So.
That I thought actually, even though I guess Dorsey was even told right after the game and that I did not have a problem with that because in the long run, you’d rather know where you stand. have a good idea going to be fired.
David Campbell (35:30.478)
Well, and the Browns have gone from being one of kind of the most, what’s the word I’m looking for, inconsiderate teams, you know, like 10, 20 years ago, they would not let guys know right away, or it was like a terrible place for free agents because everything was dysfunctional. I think the Browns’ reputation now is they do things the right way, even if they don’t, if they go three and 14 some years and win 11 games another, like they do things the right way, like you said, Terry, in terms of letting guys go so they can get into the job market.
Terry (35:38.375)
Yeah.
Terry (36:00.401)
I know when they have those… Yeah. Yeah, I guess…
David Campbell (36:00.418)
Matt, you know, working with agents to do the right thing when a player like Nick Chubb and some of these other things, they’re trying to be respectful and considerate in the way they do business, I guess is what I’m saying.
Terry (36:09.789)
Would you bring Shaw back? Yeah, I would too, same contract.
David Campbell (36:12.461)
Yeah, definitely.
I would put him in the Dante Foreman role and let him see what he can do beyond that. But they gotta get younger and more explosive at every offensive skill position. That’s just a fact. mean, who are the explosive guys on this offense, Jerry Judy and David Njoku when he’s healthy. And Jerome Ford maybe like three games a year when he breaks a 60 yarder, right? Like that’s it.
Terry (36:20.412)
Yeah.
Terry (36:28.144)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (36:31.633)
or Julie.
Terry (36:36.178)
Yeah.
Terry (36:41.875)
mean, somebody was telling me, and I’m not good enough, that he really believed that Drumford used right, and also they went back to some of that zone blocking thing where he could do his cutbacks and everything, give you really effective use correctly. And I’m all for that, but they should draft a running back. You could find somebody. Now that what they gotta do though, but as somebody explained to me,
David Campbell (37:05.364)
there’s a lot of them out there, not necessarily in the first round either.
Terry (37:10.639)
NFL executive, you know, blind coaches are like pitching coaches. they, they live in like their own world or even like a bullpen coach in baseball. And so that is why, like getting Callahan when they did back then, it was such a coup because he had just taken over. I believe he had been the, interim head coach. want to say Washington.
And he just got let go and Stefanski had a previous relationship with Callahan through somebody else. And they threw, they went right after them. And within, think 36 hours of after he was let go, he was in Cleveland and they, made a big contract and, and they just felt that, you know, he was one of the building blocks and he was of getting this team back online and his schemes fit with.
Another thing Stefanski would always praise Callahan on being involved in the play development for the running game.
David Campbell (38:17.55)
Yeah, if you ask anybody in this Browns offensive line what Bill Callahan meant to them and their careers, mean, especially guys like Wyatt Teller. He did make them a lot of money. and, and by the way, Terry, Ashley Bastoc, one of our Browns reporters had a really nice feature on Roy Istvan, the assistant line coach. And a lot of people are thinking he might get elevated to be the, you know, head offensive line coach, but check that out if you haven’t.
Terry (38:25.457)
He made these guys a lot of money. Yeah, he did.
Terry (38:35.675)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (38:43.931)
I did actually I did read it. I did read it. Yeah. I don’t know if he’s a zone blocking guy or what he is, but they were high on one when they got him. But you’re correct. My mid season Andy Dirkerson was, nowhere. and both, they dropped that one and kicked it all over the field too. And the Dorsey thing, we ended up saying the same stuff. said about him in Buffalo.
David Campbell (38:44.332)
He’s the guy who went viral on hard knocks. It’s a good story.
David Campbell (39:11.01)
All right, so there’s an email here from Doug Meredith, long time listener from Akron, and it kind of gets to the question of do you trust these guys to turn this around, Terry? Doug says, hey Terry, does Andrew Berry have incriminating photos of Jimmy Haslam? The answer is no to that. He has overseen five drafts and none of the drafted players have made the Pro Bowl. I think that’s true. You don’t, who did make it?
Terry (39:12.263)
Okay.
Terry (39:29.905)
I don’t think that’s correct. I think Delphi made it one year.
David Campbell (39:35.158)
Yeah, we’d have to go back and check that. But his point is that it’s been underachieving drafts in his view.
Terry (39:37.683)
Yeah. By the way, you know how many guys from, cause I was, when I did the book vintage Browns, I forgot how many players Belichick drafted. It was a lot, know, 48 or 52. Um, I had one pro bowler, uh, that bill Belichick, the GM really hurt bill Belichick, the coach. Um, and, but you, you’re correct. I mean, I get that part. Uh, and you look at.
David Campbell (39:57.006)
you
David Campbell (40:02.006)
And sorry, real quick Doug says, see the team that John Dorsey has helped assemble in Detroit and I wonder why he couldn’t have stayed in Cleveland. So anyway, getting back to what Terry, do you trust these guys to fix this?
Terry (40:14.651)
Yeah, in general I do because they fixed it twice. They fixed it in 20 when they came in. Yes, they had Dorsey’s key guys, but they brought in a brand new system and they were able to really pull Baker. Baker was in a bad place after Freddie Kitchens and that. they were able, and remember Odell was supposed to be the big savior. He got hurt and they were able to, they won 11 games. won 11 and five in a COVID year.
You know, 11 and 12 are bad. 13. you had all the injuries, the quarterback and everything else. Remember the offensive line was battered and they, they won 11 games again. So it’s not as if Andrew Berry was Ray Farmer for heaven’s sake. So let’s stop with that. But to the point he actually has done better trading. And you know, I put the Watson thing, it just up on some shelf.
In the end, really, and I believe this, coming back with those guys, with Kevin and with Andrew, and remember Kevin said they’re tied at the hip, those two, that that was ownership’s way of saying, we sort of drove this trade. Because otherwise, if this were purely Andrew’s idea, and he was the one that said, you know, we really need to do is trade six draft picks and, you know, kept doing all that, he should have been fired.
flat out. That’s why I don’t think it what what did he come to Jimmy and say we’re looking at quarterbacks and I really do like the Sean that would be interesting to see what the situation is. We should really look into this. I know we did that. That’s different though than saying make the most unprecedented highest risk trade in the history of the NBA NFL excuse me or probably the NBA. I can’t
David Campbell (42:06.946)
Yeah. You’d have to go back and look that one up to find one that was comparable in the NBA.
Terry (42:13.69)
Right. mean, all the, all the off field baggage and the draft picks and the record setting contract. And not only that, he had sat out the entire year before and was facing 11 game suspension. Unprecedented in any sport.
David Campbell (42:17.763)
Yeah.
David Campbell (42:33.282)
Yeah, it’s, I’m there with you, Terry. I think these guys deserve another year and they are good problem solvers. mean, look at COVID and look at the Flacco thing last year. Like they’re good at fixing things when they go awry, but the big, when they’re carrying this big Watson thing, yeah.
Terry (42:43.336)
Yeah.
Terry (42:48.082)
by the way, to stop here, just to go back into that, the Watson cloud, you couldn’t bring Flacco back because they know by their third quarter of game one, they’re going to be cheering for Flacco as opposed to, is he the best backup quarterback available?
David Campbell (43:05.56)
Well, those discussions are all gone now. the, so are the excuses, so are the excuses. Yeah, yeah. All right, we got one more email here from Neil in Jamestown, New York, long time listener. Neil says, Hey Terry, here’s what I don’t understand. If Stefanski isn’t being fired, then why wouldn’t he leave on his own and be done with the Watson situation in the Haslums? Hasn’t he taken enough punishment? He certainly would have value to another franchise with more credible ownership. What do you think of that one, Terry?
Terry (43:07.996)
Yep, heck they could bring it back. They could bring it back now as a backup. How about that? I mean, you could.
Terry (43:25.31)
Uhhh…
Terry (43:35.88)
Well, think part of it is where I wrote this column about Barry and Stefanski trust each other and work together. And they’ve been around long enough. Stefanski has to know that you could go somewhere else. I mean, yeah, Jacksonville. They never get it right.
some of these other places where you have no hope. mean, this is a situation that you know you’ve won before. And also you don’t know for a fact, you’re going to get a head coaching job. Usually there’s, there’s 32 teams and whether between like six and eight of these become open. That’s it. I mean, the thing about the NBA, I mean, excuse me, any of the pro teams, NBA, NFL or whatever, it’s just like, and they say, well, you know, let’s make the owner sell and
For example, if David, if you want to really get pizza power, but I was mad at you and didn’t want your pizza. If I had enough money, I could go down the road and open my own pizza power. I can’t do that because I’m mad at the Browns. I can’t go down the road and open my own NFL team. And if I’m a head coach in the NBA, NFL, any these things, I can’t just go out on my own and create my own coaching job. I need one of these.
David Campbell (44:44.248)
Yeah, and it’s just-
Terry (44:56.062)
opportunities to come my way.
David Campbell (45:00.426)
And also these guys just joined at the hip. Like they just signed a contract extension before the season together. They’re, they’re in this together and I, these guys are so competitive, Terry to he’s under contract with the Browns number one. So we can’t leave it for another job. Number two, I think these guys want to finish this out and show that they can do it. That’s, that’s a huge challenge and something they’re probably really fired up to do.
Terry (45:12.253)
Yeah.
Terry (45:21.446)
Yeah, they could show.
Well, they could they can make or break their careers here. By that, mean, if they turn around the next two years and say, even if next year they somehow get near close to playoffs and make it the following year, everybody go, well, was this the owner just screwed him up with Watson? And look at what they do on their own. They did it before they did it again. That sets them up for a long time to work at high level jobs in the NFL.
David Campbell (45:48.194)
Yep. All right. Anything else on the browns, Terry?
Terry (45:51.71)
No, just one last thing too. People believe me, Barry and Stefanski, they know that they have to produce this upcoming year. I’m not saying a title team or whatever, but they can’t turn around. And when you, when you get a second chance after being three and 14, you better have a winning record after that.
David Campbell (46:10.69)
Yeah, especially with being as high in the draft as they are. Not just in the first round either, but they’ll be picking number two, think. Yeah, yeah, so they’ll be in the top three or four of every round, so that’s big.
Terry (46:12.72)
Sure.
30, I think it’s 33. I think they get the.
And they got a couple of third rounders. That third round pick they got for Amari Cooper, who really didn’t play that well for Buffalo, by the way. That’s gonna look pretty good.
David Campbell (46:33.23)
And the two picks they got for Delvin Tomlinson also, which are further down the draft. They’ll come into play if they want to move up. So, all right. It’s going to be really just compelling off season for the Browns to see how this process plays out. And we will be covering all of it at cleveland.com in terms of who’s out there and who they might go after. So, all right. Let’s talk guardians for a few minutes. Terry, you’ve been writing about the Alex Cobb contract with the Tigers. That was something, huh? 15 million.
Terry (46:37.661)
Yeah.
Terry (46:58.044)
I just couldn’t help it. I’m like, what? is his agent? Agent of the year. 15 million. Even probably Bieber’s going, that guy got more money than I did. I believe, didn’t Matthew Boy get two years of 28 million, I think. So he basically for one year got more. Alex Cobb.
David Campbell (47:03.342)
You
Terry (47:24.19)
know, word love them, bitch, 22 innings between the playoffs and regular season. Now the year before he pitched pretty well with the, was it the giants he was with? forgot. and. But he, I mean, he couldn’t get healthy. It was a hip and then it was the back and it was the finger.
Just like, just shows how starved they are for something resembling a starting pitcher. So it just floored me. Yeah.
David Campbell (47:45.55)
$16 million.
David Campbell (47:52.11)
Yeah, and as you mentioned in your column, like comparing that to Bieber’s contract, which is what? 10 million for 2025 and then 16 million for 2026, which is a player option, which he can take or leave. And then it’s a 4 million buyout if he leaves after this 2025 season, right?
Terry (48:04.114)
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. mean, you may only get a half year out. Well, that’ll be all right. Here’s one who gets who pitches more innings this year, Bieber or Alex Ka.
David Campbell (48:18.702)
I’m gonna go with Bieber.
Terry (48:21.246)
I am too. just, and I, I happened to like Alex. remember I still, I fell in love with them when he was a young pitcher and he came into Cleveland, I think it was in 2013. Remember he beat them in that playoff game. And I kind of followed him after that because he, know, he’s a guy he’s got the average stuff or whatever, but he’s a smart pitcher and you know, he’s won a lot of games. And I, I know why the guardians were attracted to him last year, but I think he’s 35 or 36. It’s just, it was just amazing.
I mean, then again, we all know Carlos Santana won his gold glove at 39.
David Campbell (48:55.596)
Alright, well it is kind of hot stove season Terry and it’s always fun to kind of speculate on some fun baseball things We got a good email here from Jim Brasdale from North Carolina Jim’s a long time listener and he says love your podcast when they’re over I’m always eagerly awaiting the next one. Thanks for that Jim It seems today that the baseball Cognacenti are all clutching their pearls about what to do about the rash of injuries to pitchers and Starting pitchers not able to pitch complete games anymore
Terry (49:00.743)
Yeah.
David Campbell (49:23.726)
Some nonsensical and unworkable solutions proposed include mandating starters go a set number of innings. To me, the solution is in plain sight. Just correct the mistake made in 1969 and return the height of the pitching mound to 15 inches or thereabouts from the 10 inches today. This would relieve pressure on pitchers to have to throw maximum velocity with every pitch and return the craft of making slow breaking ball pitches. It may even result in the kind of
Terry (49:45.406)
David Campbell (49:51.595)
into the return it may even result in the return of the knuckleball which would be entertaining that would certainly reduce the number of arm injuries what do you think? Thanks Jim interesting thing to bring up
Terry (50:00.562)
I
David Campbell (50:07.298)
Yeah, rah rah rah, grumble grumble.
Terry (50:25.894)
It’s like when I talked to the late Rocky Colavito and he was sitting in lot of home runs in the 60s, he’s going, these guys are firing from on top like Mount Everest and they’re throwing 95 miles an hour. Here’s the problem with the thinking is that it doesn’t matter if you are thrown from flat ground or you were thrown from a 30 inch mound. These pitchers are now so programmed to try to get maximum velocity.
They are, it’s like they have radar guns and spin, spin rate meters installed like in their brain chips. And they’re going to just keep trying to push that, push it. And it would just be, I mean, nobody could hit back then. Didn’t you look some of the stuff up at all?
David Campbell (51:14.062)
Yeah, I was kind of curious. they went from 15 to 10 inches in 1969 and the ERA went from, let’s see, it was 3.30 in 1967 and then it went down to 2.98 in 1968. And then in 1969, it went up with the mound change to 3.61 and then it went up again in 1970 to 3.89. It’s still amazing. didn’t Bob Gibson, I think Bob Gibson had a 1.12.
Terry (51:42.27)
Oh yeah, Louis Tion had an ERA under two one year with Cleveland if I remember right. I mean, the middle 60s Cleveland had a staff with Louis Tion, Sam McDowell, a guy named Sonny Siebert, was really good, Steve Hargan. I mean, these guys, and they were throwing hard off the mound. It was something to see. you, well, the batting title was, Strumsky was 301 and 68, I know that.
David Campbell (51:42.933)
ERA in 1968.
David Campbell (52:11.15)
And just for some comparison the ERA in the 2024 baseball season and MLB was 4.07 So if so Jim’s basic premise is that if the mound was higher guys wouldn’t have to throw so hard to get that action on the ball with the spin rates and everything and I’ll tell you Terry I wouldn’t mind seeing this like in the Arizona Fall League or You know I’m saying like some low rookie a ball league where it’s short season maybe and they just try it just
Terry (52:26.427)
Yes.
Terry (52:33.2)
I could try that, yeah.
David Campbell (52:41.036)
I’d love to see that. I’d love to see what it would do to the numbers and how the pitching motions might change and what kind of pitches they’d throw. I think it’d be a really interesting experiment. I really do.
Terry (52:51.272)
course, see the problem is Jim is talking common sense, which is, I’m serious. He’s not talking about those microchips in their brain about radar guns and spin rates. these guys are, they’re always checking that and don’t underestimate the accent on spin rate. Spin rate is like you throw a slider or you throw a curve ball, how fast does it spin? Think about the strain on the arm. How do you make the ball spin faster?
David Campbell (52:54.38)
Hahaha!
Terry (53:17.534)
You snap your elbow and everything harder. And what does that lead to? Arm injuries. So I think the spin rate is just, um, is much of a culprit with all the injuries as the radar gun and you combine the two, you got all kinds of problems. Uh, so I don’t have a good, mean, I agree. can’t mandate that the guy has to pitch four innings or something. Cause what if he’s terrible and that we can make them throw 120 pitches to get through four innings.
David Campbell (53:46.862)
Oh yeah, it’ll be like a little league game. Things will be left. Yeah.
Terry (53:48.72)
Yeah, you can’t do that. Yeah. So that doesn’t make any sense. I don’t know. But I do like the thing of trying to think out of the box and thinking logically. I like that. But baseball is not logical on this stuff.
David Campbell (53:56.28)
But really, really interesting idea, though.
David Campbell (54:07.458)
Well, the one thing we know is that baseball does not want to have less offense, less home runs, and less exciting offensive plays.
Terry (54:11.994)
No. And it could, and it very well could lead to that because of the, the angle of that ball coming at you.
You know, I think about Bieber and he won 15 games, I think it was. He had an ERA just right around three point in 2022. And then in 23, he had some arm problems. He still pitched fairly well, but even in 22 when he was pitching that well, there was all this stuff about.
Well, he’s only throwing 92 miles an hour. You know, he used to throw 95, 96 and Frank Kona would get very upset. He goes, I don’t care. Quit looking at the radar. Got to look at his earn run average. He’s working the corners. He’s doing, you know, he’s, he’s pitching, you know, of Tito’s flashing back to when guys did that. So yeah, exactly. You’re right. Tom Glavin, all those guys.
David Campbell (55:07.534)
Oh yeah. mean, anybody who watched Greg Maddux ever pitch, that was all he did for 20 years. Yeah.
Terry (55:13.854)
and with the Braves and other pitchers that the Orioles had guys that would do that worked the corners and everything. So you turn to 23, he pitches, he gets hurt, he pitches a couple of games at the end of the year, and then they try to raise your velocity. And of course, so actually Beaver comes out and he’s back to throw 94, 95, but he pitches 12 innings and blows his elbow out. But the change of mentality from I should just pitch the 92, 93 as opposed to going for 95 or above, you don’t know for sure, that lead to him needing the Tommy John elbow surgery or not?
But my goodness, see all this stuff. I one of the other things that they do at these pitching clinics is the weighted ball things throwing. Well, in spring training, Gavin Williams hurt his arm throwing those weighted balls.. I’m talking about them as symbolic of the whole new wave, the chase for velocity that you’re getting it. And also these independent places grow up around that.
David Campbell (56:48.11)
Sure, the chase for velocity is what you’re getting at. Yes.
Terry (56:57.946)
And it’s why you have so many injuries too for kids in high school, kids in college, maybe even junior high, because they’re chasing those, velocity and they’re going to different places to try and learn to throw harder. And so that’s, it’s an interesting thought that goes back, cause I am fascinated by this.
David Campbell (57:20.97)
You know, real quick, this reminds me a little bit of Michael Jordan in some ways, like when Michael Jordan came into the NBA, right? He was soaring down the lane, dunking over everybody. But, but as he got older, he became a smarter player and a little less athletic, probably quite a bit less athletic by the end. And he mastered his, you know, turnaround jumper, his step back game.
Terry (57:22.407)
Yeah.
Terry (57:29.938)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
David Campbell (57:45.038)
the things that didn’t require him soaring four feet over people and dunking. He changed his game as he got older. I think you’re onto something. think pitchers would be wise to maybe take a page out of that book. like you said, so what if your velocity drops to two miles an hour? Learn a backdoor curve. You know I’m saying? There’s ways to pitch where you don’t have to be throwing 95. And I think guys could take a page out of the Michael Jordan book sometimes.
Terry (58:10.877)
Yeah.
David Campbell (58:14.41)
not feel like they’re quote unquote losing it so much.
Terry (58:18.398)
The unfortunate thing see there you couldn’t measure too much of like How much he was soaring versus I guess you could kind of dunks but here everything is measured oh That slider was only 92 there, you know or 94.6 that used to be 93.4. Well, he’s down 1.2 And that’s how it how it goes Yeah, they do this where
David Campbell (58:31.906)
Yeah, down to the nub. Yeah.
David Campbell (58:40.92)
Yep. And his contract’s up soon. Yep.
Terry (58:47.934)
I really do like the idea getting back to pitching. mean, they will tell you one of the first things, and I even look at it too, how many innings pitched versus strikeouts. And you want at least one strikeout per inning pitched. And if he doesn’t have that, I don’t know. And I mean, I was talking to a…
I talked to him and I said, you guys are just obsessed with strikeouts and this and that. said, well, you know the thing about strikeouts. And I’m like, for pictures of what he goes, well, basically nothing could go wrong. The worst thing could happen is the guy swings and misses the catcher misses. He gets the first base where if he hits the ball, there’s always a chance something can go wrong.
David Campbell (59:36.238)
It’s true.
Terry (59:36.926)
Okay, the logic is there, but what is the ramifications of the obsession with strikeouts? It’s all these arm injuries. The stat that I saw was 36 % of majoring pitchers have had Tommy John surgery, some multiple. Jeff Passon did write a great book several years ago called The Arm. It gets caught a little in some of the semantics and…
the technicalities of arm injuries, but it’s an eye-opener of the culture, which is even more embedded now of the radar gun, the spin rate, the young pitchers, all this stuff. Really worth reading. that there is this thing out there that, if you have Tommy John surgery, you’ll be fine. You’ll come back throwing harder. Well, you hear about those guys who there, but you don’t hear about the guy that the surgery didn’t work.
Or he came back and four months later he ripped it up again. They disappear.
David Campbell (01:00:35.886)
Yeah.
David Campbell (01:00:40.014)
Alright, well thanks for that email. got us on a good conversation there. And again, if you want to hit us with thoughts, questions, comments for the podcast, just send it to sports at cleveland.com and put Terry’s talking in the subject line and we’ll try and get you on next week. So you want to talk Ohio State for a couple minutes, Terry?
Terry (01:00:56.028)
Yeah, go ahead. You start because you’re you’re more into it than I am. But I have some thoughts. Yeah, go ahead.
David Campbell (01:00:59.566)
Oh, yeah, I’m, this has been, it’s, it’s always really fun when I watched the NFL playoffs toward the end, because the teams that advance, it’s such a high level of football that they don’t have pre-snap penalties, which you’ve been writing about with the Browns all season. They don’t fumble. They don’t have dumb mistakes or bad, like it’s, it’s, it’s football at its highest art form.
Terry (01:01:18.419)
Yeah.
David Campbell (01:01:28.704)
And I feel like Ohio State is getting to that point right now. Like if you watch that last game where they went at Oregon from the very beginning, like they did not, it was almost like perfect in the way college football should be played. There were no dropped passes. There were no fumbles. I don’t even know if they committed a penalty. I’m trying, maybe they did one, but I don’t remember like a holding penalty or anything that impacted the game. it was, they’re getting.
Terry (01:01:34.846)
Mmm.
Yeah.
David Campbell (01:01:56.942)
They’re pushing so hard to win this championship that I’m really starting to see some of the things you see from just high, high level NFL teams as they get toward the Superbowl. So anyway, that’s kind of where I met with OSU.
Terry (01:02:07.166)
Well, about that game, Robert and I had a ministry thing. So I knew I was getting in late and I turn it on and I had the tape thing running, but it was like, didn’t they have 30 points like right away? Something like that. It’s like second quarter, they’re under 30. Yeah, like in the middle of the second quarter, they’re like at 28 or I’m like, this thing’s over. And so that would be, then I went back and saw what they did early. It’s like, wow. I just hope that
David Campbell (01:02:22.562)
Yeah. 34 to nothing, I think, was it? Yeah.
Terry (01:02:36.722)
Brian day stays in that frame of mind with a chip Kelly of just come out and pound these guys Just go right after if you throw an interception you throw an interception You know if you have a strip sack fumble on you you have it you have more Basically, you have more artillery than they do so don’t suddenly come out with the hunting rifles You just keep firing. You know your long-range Mitchell missiles
and see what they do. And also their running games exploded with the big passing.
David Campbell (01:03:09.634)
Yeah, they’ve, they’ve really got it going on. you know, our, Ohio state reporters have been writing about how the Michigan loss was program changing in a lot of ways. And it’s, it’s just driven them to go on this quest to win it all. And, and, I was saying to some of the other day, they don’t bring you back 10 years later as you beat Michigan, they bring you back and honor you at the 50 yard line at a game 10 years later when you win the national championship.
Terry (01:03:35.144)
Yeah?
David Campbell (01:03:37.918)
And that’s what these guys are going for.
Terry (01:03:38.11)
I mean, was, uh, Trim Trestle was beloved obviously for being the local guy who turned around losing to Michigan to winning Michigan. But what’s he most known for? And actually beating, beating Ken Dorsey in a national title game, which I was at that over time, I forgot how many over times it was. It was one of the greatest games, you know, ever seen. And that you’re correct. That, that is your
David Campbell (01:03:53.538)
national championship. That’s right.
Terry (01:04:08.136)
Cardell Jones is forever beloved for that. It is what he did in the national titles, those playoff games. So there you are. No, just got kind of curious.
David Campbell (01:04:18.998)
Alright, well it’s Ohio State. Ohio State will be playing Texas on Friday night in the Cotton Bowl. I think kickoff is at 730 if I remember so that will be some compelling football drama. Check that out. So you had a book you want to talk about this week, Terry?
Terry (01:04:34.044)
Yeah. Well, last week, think, or last time we talked, I talked about the price, by Armand Kataian and, what’s the guy salty? John Talty. Yeah. College football. Really great. Look at it. This one I saw it reviewed in the, the wall street journal is by David Rubenstein, who by the way, owns the Baltimore Orioles, but he made his, he, he early on, he worked some of politics and then he went to a thing called the Carlisle group, which is one of these big
David Campbell (01:04:37.955)
Mm-hmm.
John Talty.
Terry (01:05:04.602)
Equity things, you know, it’s Billy is a billionaire. Yeah, all that. Yeah, buddy. He always is kind of he’s written some sort of history books and aside. It’s called the highest calling conversations on the American presidency. And what he did is he interviewed, we interviewed a couple of former presidents like Bush, what the time Trump was now he’s back in and Clinton. And so he has those, but he also interviewed top historians.
David Campbell (01:05:06.734)
private equity investment outfits,
Terry (01:05:32.132)
about different presidents. Everyone was from Calvin Coolidge to Abraham Lincoln. And it sounds like, that sounds boring. It’s an oral history format, a little bit like I did loose balls. And it is easy to read. Now you got to like history and care about this stuff. But I have, I have been just kind of engrossed in it. And it’s fun to read about some of the lesser presses. I wish he had done them all. He didn’t do them all, did most of them.
and check it out. So it’s called The Highest Calling, David Rubenstein. And I think if you like history, it’s worth it. I consider it a really easy read. So there you are.
David Campbell (01:06:15.342)
Cool, I love how you kind of bounce around from different, there’s some people who only read one type of book and you don’t. You like to hop around between history and sports and narrative, narrative, historical fiction and yeah.
Terry (01:06:22.908)
Yeah. History sports and I, I love fit. Yeah. And yeah. And, you know, like, example, CJ box is a mystery writer about it. His main character is, called Joe Pickett. think they have a Netflix series on him. Wyoming game warden. love, CJ jock boxes stuff. That’s those like sort of light reading there, know, Michael Connolly, the rice detective stuff out of LA.
You Connelly started as a CJ Box started writing for the Saratoga, not New York, Wyoming weekly paper and the Sierra Saratoga, which I’ve been in Saratoga, it’s about a town of 5,000 Saratoga Chamber of Commerce. He would like to PR stuff for them. And he came up with this idea of like doing a mystery around a Wyoming game warden and he was able to find an agent, sold it and it took off.
David Campbell (01:06:58.574)
Wow.
Terry (01:07:17.082)
Michael Connolly started as a crime writer, I believe in Fort Waterdale first, and then later went to LA. But I heard an interview with him, and in the back of his mind, he wanted to write detective stories like Raymond Chandler. And one of the reasons he went into journalism, his father, who by the way owned a construction company, Connolly used to work with his dad, said, well, then you need to get around the cops and the crooks and everybody else.
you should go into journalism and do the copy. And he did. And he started taking notes all the way along. And then when he went out to LA, he developed the character Harry Bosch, which, you know, sold tons for him. He’s got other books too. And then he made friends with the cops. And now see what these guys do is once you become successful as a novelist, like Connelly’s got a couple of cops he sits around with and
buy some dinner beers, I’m sure he probably throw some money their way. Tell me stories. Then he calls them up and say, no, you know, if you ever found the guy like this, or I know that CJ Box has got along right along ride alongs with these different wildlife guys. And, you know, we hear some guys, you know, scalping, scalping moose antlers deep in the Teton somewhere you want to go, you know, stuff like that. And, and it’s just, it brings
David Campbell (01:08:16.355)
Yeah.
David Campbell (01:08:35.457)
Yeah.
Terry (01:08:40.11)
You don’t see the reporting in fiction, really good fiction takes you somewhere you can’t go and into the characters, but it’s sort of the landscape and in places like those two novels and like some of the others, James Lee Burke did it with the Bayou. The landscape becomes a character. The mountains of Wyoming is a character. LA, the traffic jams, whether it’s South Central or Beverly Hills, they’re characters too.
So that’s what’s fun for me to watch as a writer to see how they do that.
David Campbell (01:09:13.602)
Yeah, it’s making me think a little bit about David Simon, who wrote The Wire and he spent years and years covering cops and crime and politics in Baltimore and lot of that background informed his writing for The Wire. Is that right? Wow.
Terry (01:09:16.894)
Wired.
Terry (01:09:24.958)
I think he was at the Baltimore Sun when I was there in 79. Yeah, it seems, it seems like I didn’t meet him, but later on, somebody told me that I’d have to look that up or he came in right after, but yeah, David Simon, exactly. And then he ended up doing, working on some other shows. Um, there there’s a Chicago sports writer named John Shulian. was a columnist. Shulian then ended up writing for like LA law and some others.
shows like that. Yes, he did. It’s, I’ll tell you, it’s a tough place to crack into because of, you know, my book Loose Balls has been optioned several times for be it a movie or kind of a sort of a Netflix type series or something. And it’s never gotten made. But I have talked to, you know, some of the people in the beginning of the producers and, and this and I remember reading a book called Adventures in the Screen Trade by
David Campbell (01:09:53.683)
I did not know that. Yeah.
Terry (01:10:23.486)
William Goldman. Goldman is a well-known novelist and screenwriter. did Butch Cassie and Sundance Kid. He did Marathon Man. He did All the Presidents Man. I’m sure I’m missing a bunch. But he wrote The Adventures of the Spring Trade. He goes, the longer you’re out here, you go, I don’t know how anything ever gets made. It’s like this one, you’re there. And he goes, you’re standing in front of some guy. I have an agent who’s been selling
this thing for years. I mean, it’s like one of the pitches they make for for my book, Loose Balls is mad man does basketball. You got to go in there like with something like that, you know. They jam them together and hope, yeah, that sounds like something we should do. Yeah, it could be new, but not too new. So. Well, yeah, it’s like.
David Campbell (01:11:04.59)
Yeah, take two things and jam them together and it’s totally new.
Yeah, yeah. Well, good luck. Maybe one of these years I’ll get picked up, Terry. That’d be fun. It’s kind of like the Showtime thing that they did with the lake or something like that,
Terry (01:11:20.318)
Yeah, it’s like exactly. Yeah, I get it. You know, I get a few bucks tossed in for a book I wrote in 1989. So, and it still sells about 2000 copies a year and you get it on Amazon. And, I’ve heard people, I’ve done some national shows ago and he wrote the definitive book on the ABA. Well, it is, but it’s also the only one. I mean, there’ve been some others done the different franchises, but yes, yeah, I’ll take it. So anyway, but there you go.
David Campbell (01:11:27.502)
You
David Campbell (01:11:44.529)
Distinctive yeah Yeah All right great book recommendations. So all right. So, uh, let’s see. Let’s wrap up with one. We’ve got some good you asked before the end of the year for people to send in some stories about Sports funerals. So we’ve got we’ve got three. want us we’ve got some good ones I want to save those for next week and I wanted to end with this one. This is from Howard Ross in Lindhurst, Ohio
Terry (01:11:58.376)
funerals?
David Campbell (01:12:08.43)
I think with the beginning of last year, we were talking about sports cliches and Howard’s got one. says, hi, Dave and Terry, my nomination for an overused word or expression is superstar. The term is thrown around so loosely as to render it currently without meaning. There is or should be a difference between a star and a superstar. My son-in-law has preferred a nice definition of superstar. Someone who is known by the public beyond just the people who follow their sport. That’s interesting. He says, LeBron is a superstar. Anthony Edwards or SGA is not.
Terry (01:12:12.029)
Yeah.
Terry (01:12:33.694)
Yeah.
David Campbell (01:12:38.176)
Each may be an All-Star, they even may be all NBA, but the general public doesn’t know them, so they are not superstars. The superstar designation should be precise and rare. This applies not just to sports, but to music. Taylor Swift and Beyonce are superstars, or other fields of endeavor. Thanks for listening. And again, that’s Howard Ross from Lindhurst. What do think of that, Terry? I think that that kind of makes sense, right?
Terry (01:12:58.59)
Well, that’s why I call Jose Ramirez a secret superstar. I always call him that because that’s what I was thinking. You know, he’s really kind of viewed as a star, but when you look at him there, but nobody knows it other than those of us here and the people who are in baseball. But you’re correct. It’s thrown around or they look at some young boy. He’s going to be a superstar. If the guy makes all pro once.
David Campbell (01:13:03.64)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (01:13:25.67)
I mean, he’s in the top 3 % or something like that. I like that. I like that. You know, is this I just wondered, is we’ve been doing are we going are we running downhill on this podcast? Yeah, I really thought we. I heard now I cringe now whenever I hear that ever since I forgot who sent that in one of our listeners like, yeah, yeah.
David Campbell (01:13:28.568)
Yeah. Good. Well, thanks for that.
David Campbell (01:13:37.227)
Running downhill. We are,
David Campbell (01:13:41.998)
We’re getting near the goal line.
David Campbell (01:13:51.042)
running downhill.
Terry (01:13:51.878)
Yeah, I feel like I’m writing downhill sometimes. Doing is going real down.
David Campbell (01:13:56.206)
All right. Well, we’re getting near the goal line here. I think we’re done right Terry All right. I’m gonna save these funeral stories if you have any other stories comments on as I mentioned earlier questions things you want to say get off your chest about the podcast sports at cleveland.com Terry Pluto and I will be back and we’ll see you then on Terry’s talking
